Curveball grips and spin

     Even at the earliest levels of baseball, most players, parents and coaches are fascinated by the curveball.  I remember very well when I was first "allowed" to throw one in a game.  Even then, it was only reserved for the "good hitters" when I had 2 strikes on them.  Like many, at least I hope, I wanted to throw a nasty curveball.  I wanted hitters to look as bad as possible.  Throughout my career, I was shown many different grips, but I was most comfortable with a spike curve grip (pictured below).  

     I was told by a pitching instructor that Sandy Koufax had the nastiest curveball ever and that the reason his was so good was because of his grip.  He told me that his grip allowed the ball the turn over faster than anyone else's.  Of course, this was before spin rate became something that was talked about in baseball and we definitely can't go back and test the spin on Koufax's curveball now.  I was told that Koufax threw his more like the picture below and then imagine casting a fishing pole.  I couldn't find much on his grip, so without proof, this could or could not be true. 

     Naturally, i tried throwing my curveball this way, but it was never very comfortable to me.  So since I now have technology that can measure spin rates, I decided to do another little test on curveball grips & spin rates.  I looked at 4 fairly common curveball grips (finger up, 2 seam, regular & spike) and also used the Koufax thumb placement (picture above) for all 4, giving us 8 grips in total.  I also got velocities on each pitch.  I wanted to see what grip would yield the highest spin rate.  I essentially knew that the spike curve would have the highest spin rate due to it being the one I used for most of my life.  Nonetheless, I wanted to see what the data would say.  Here are the averages for each grip with the Koufax thumb placement under each: 

 Finger Up

AVG SPIN RATE: 1,893 RPM     AVG VELO: 62.7 MPH

KOUFAX

AVG SPIN RATE: 1,824 RPM     AVG VELO: 64.4 MPH

 2 Seam

AVG SPIN RATE: 1,974 RPM   AVG VELO: 66.9 MPH

KOUFAX

AVG SPIN RATE: 2,013 RPM     AVG VELO: 67.4 MPH

Regular

AVG SPIN RATE: 2,006 RPM     AVG VELO: 66.4 MPH

KOUFAX

AVG SPIN RATE: 1,893 RPM     AVG VELO: 66.6 MPH

Spike 

AVG SPIN RATE: 2,116 RPM     AVG VELO: 68.8 MPH

KOUFAX

AVG SPIN RATE: 1,896 RPM     AVG VELO: 66.6 MPH

     At first glance, nothing really seemed too different than I had anticipated from a spin rate standpoint. I assumed that the highest spin rate would be on my normal grip (spike curve) and it was.  I also assumed that the normal thumb placement would yield higher spin rates and for the most part, it appeared that it did.  The only exception to that was the 2 seam grip.  What I did find interesting were the velocity numbers.  On 3 of the 4 grips, average velocity was up with the Koufax grip. I must note that Koufax is known to have very large hands, which could greatly impact his grip.  

   In would be interesting to see arm speeds for each before jumping to any conclusion.  I have those numbers, but I just haven't tallied them yet.  At some point, I plan to go back and add those numbers in.  My guess is that my arm speed was slow on the regular curveball grip because it was the first grip that I used, meaning that I probably was not at full speed yet.  This could have a big impact on the numbers.  

     As for what this means for any pitcher out there reading, it probably means nothing.  This was a test with just myself and only a few pitches with each grip at sub max effort. Every pitcher will be different.  Just because the Spike Curve yielded the best numbers in this test does not mean that everyone should use that grip.  Also, spin rates on curveballs would generally indicate break, but we know that all spin rate isn't created equal.  In order to determine break definitively, more testing would need to be done with better technology.  I would imagine that the 2 seam grip could be an odd one in terms of useful spin.  So anyone with the technology to measure break along with spin rate, feel free to take over from here.  

Pronation & Spin Rate

             *Fair warning that this was pretty quickly written.  I've got 2 little boys (3 and 4 months) in the house with me so time is very limited. That being said, I will probably have to go back and make changes later.* 

             Near the end of my MiLB playing career, an idea popped into my head just before taking the mound.  I had always had a relatively “flat” fastball.  I threw 4 seam fastballs only.  I tried to throw a 2 seam fastball, but I never figured out how to make it move effectively.  Different grips, thumb placements & pressure points.  Nothing seemed to work for me.  Fortunately, in the Royals organization, we weren’t “allowed” to throw 2 seamers anyways.  On this particular day, I decided that I was going to try to forcefully turn my 4 seamer over to create movement.  7 years later (present day), this popped back into my head.  So naturally, the next step was to test out the effects of turning the ball over on spin rate.  Here’s what I found:.

            This test actually started out to see the difference in ball velocity, but the end result was an identical average velo for the 2.  This couldn’t have worked out any better for the sake of spin rate.  A little disclaimer: this was a very limited test.  It was conducted on just 1 athlete (or former athlete anyways) over 12 pitches done at sub-maximum intensity.  The average velo for both was 82.9 MPH.  The average spin rates, however, were much different.  The normal 4 seam fastball yielded an average spin rate of 2,041 RPM’s.  The pronated 4 seam fastball yielded an average spin rate of 1928 RPM’s.  Both are well below average MLB spin rates, but this is a very significant difference nonetheless.  To make up for being below average MLB spin rates, I turned to Driveline’s Bauer Units.  to get a better idea of exactly how significant the difference was. The average Bauer Units were 24.62 vs 23.26. 

            While trying to forcefully pronate at release, one thing I noticed was that it didn’t feel very consistent.  When looking back on the spin rates, it would appear to match what I felt.  Spin rates ranged from 1,722-2,028 RPM’s while velocity ranged from 81.4-84.3 MPH.  With the normal 4 seam fastball, spin rates ranged from 2,010-2,124 RPM’s & 82.4-83.1 MPH.  As you can see, things were much more consistent with the normal grip.  For me, this would mean that it’s hard to repeat the wrist placement at release when trying to pronate at release.  Ultimately, this would appear to be why the ranges are so wide.  The most interesting find may have been the fastest throw during the test.  The highest velocity came while turning the ball over at 84.3 MPH, but it also had the lowest spin rate (1,722 RPM’s).  The Bauer Unit of this particular pitch was 20.43, which would be remarkable to replicate at a higher velocity! 

It would appear that my hypothesis that turning the 4 seam over would lead to more movement based off of these findings, but again, this is a limited test.  It would still take a little more testing to see if this happens fairly consistently among athletes and would take better technology to determine exactly how much movement.  So anyone with the technology to do so, feel free to take over from here. 

Fall Strength Training

Phase 1

Jobes exercises for In Season Arm Care

In Season Training

Sample In Season Protocol